SHOULD THE CHURCH TEACH TITHING?
LONDON DEBATE, MAR 30, 2011 TRANSCRIPT
Should the Church Teach Tithing?
ARTICLES
BAPTIST ERRORS
BLOGSPOT BLOG LIST SINCE 2005
BUY BOOKS AND VIDEO
ENDORSEMENTS
FIRSTFRUITS WERE NEVER TITHES
REBUTTALS OF TITHE-TEACHERS
RUSSELL EARL KELLY, PHD
SEARCH INDEX
THEOLOGIANS AND HISTORIANS WHO AGREE
INTRODUCTION
1. Origin and Definition of Tithing
2. Genesis 14:20 Abraham, Melchizedek, Arab Custom and Tithing
3. Genesis 28:22 Jacob's Bargain With God
4. Numbers 18: The Obscure Statute/Ordinance of Tithing
5. Leviticus 27:30-34 Tithing and Holy and Most Holy Statutes
6. Tithes Replaced Land Inheritance
7. How Many Tithes? 10%, 20%, or 23 1/3rd%?
8. Deuteronomy 12 and 14: Strange Facts about Tithing
9. The Poor and Jesus Did Not Tithe
10. Kings, Tithes and Taxes: Levites with Political Jobs
11. 2nd Chronicles 31 Explains Malachi
12. Nehemiah 10-13: Historical Context of Malachi
13a. Commentary on Malachi 1 and 2: Cursing the Priests for Stealing
13b. Malachi 3 and 4
14. Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42 Supporting the Old Covenant and Its Interpreters
15. Luke 18:12 A Pharisee's Boast about Tithing
16. Acts 15 and 21: Compromise Divided the Jerusalem Church
17. Hebrews 8; 2nd Corinthians 3; A Better New Covenant; MARTIN LUTHER
18. The Mosaic Law and the "Law" of Christ; MATT 5:17-19
19. Hebrews 7: Extremely Important
20. Ephesians 2:14-16; Colossians 2:13-17: Law Ordinances Ended
21. 1 Peter 2:9-10: Your Priesthood Abolishes Tithing
22. 1 Corinthians 9: Using Christian Liberty to Refuse Christian Rights [2007]
23. 1 Corinthians 16: Principles for Giving to the Needy
24. 1 Timothy 5:17: Worthy of Double Honor
25. Miscellaneous Objections
26. Chafer and Walvoord on New Covenant Giving
27. 2 Corinthians 8 and 9: Principles of Grace Giving
28. Acts 20:16-35: Paul's Sermon is Not Preached
29. Secular History of Tithing
30. Tithing Principles for Tithe-Teaching Churches
31. Spreading the Gospel
BIBLIOGRAPHY AND PAGE #
58% of Evangelical Leaders Reject Tithing, April 2011
140 QUESTIONS FOR TITHE ADVOCATES
1873: TITHING FIRST SUGGESTED IN USA
20% OF SBC PASTORS AND 31% OF OTHER PASTORS AGREE
ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THIS BOOK
AKIN, DANIEL, PRESIDENT SEBTS
ALCORN, RANDY
Amazon.com Reviews
ANTI-TITHING VIDEOS
ASSEMBLY OF GOD TITHING STATEMENT
BACKLASH AGAINST TITHING, WALL STREET JOURNAL
BAKER, ROBERT A: SBC HISTORIAN
BAKER'S EVANGELICAL DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE
BAPTIST STATEMENTS OF FAITH AGREED UNTIL 1963
Bafcley, William
BLACK, DAVID ALAN, TH. D.; SBC THEOLOGIAN
BLOGGING CONDEMNED BY GEORGIA BAPTIST LEADERS
BOOKIDEAS: PROFESSIONAL BOOK REVIEW
BROWN, TOM: WOF MINISTRIES
BURKETT, LARRY AND DAYTON, HOWARD; CROWN
CALVIN, JOHN: TITHING
CAMERON, BARRY: TITHING ABCs
CARSON, D A; REBUTTAL ON TITHING
CARTOON
CBS TRANSCRIPT AND COMMENTS
CHARISMA MAGAZINE 3-11-08
CHEUNG, VINCENT: MALACHI
CHRISTIAN TODAY, TITHING, 2016
CHRISTIAN TORAH DOCTRINE
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND RECOMMENDED READING
COME LET US GROW TOGETHER: TITHING
CONNER, KEVIN J; MELCHIZEDEK
COPELAND, KENNETH: TITHING REBUTTAL
CORBAN AND FIRSTFRUIT-TITHING
CROTEAU, DAVID, PHD
CROWN MINISTRIES 2012
DANA, H E: SOUTHERN BAPTIST HISTORIAN
DEJONG, PAUL: TITHING
DOLLAR, CREFLO: TITHING REBUTAL
Et essay: Tiende er ikke en kristen lære
Dizimar não é uma doutrina cristã
Un ensayo: el diezmar no es una doctrina cristiana
EVANS, TONY
EZEKIEL'S TEMPLE: NO TITHING
FLOYD, RONNIE
GEORGE, WILLIE; REBUTTAL
GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION
GRACE-GIVING CHURCHES
GRAHAM, BILLY: TITHING
GRAHAM, FRANKLIN: SALARY-TITHING
GREIMANN, DEAN ON TITHING
HAGEE, JOHN
HANNESSY, SHAWN, TITHING
HAYFORD, JACK; TITHING
HEMPHILL, KENNETH, TITHING; SBC SPOKESMAN
KEN HEMPHILL AND BOBBY EKLUND
HINN, BENNY: TITHING
HOUSTON, BRIAN: HILLSONG, TITHING
HOW TO BECOME A PROSPERITY PREACHER
If We Don't Preach Tithing, How Do We Pay the Church Bills?
JAKES, TD; 49 LIES TOLD ABOUT TITHING
JEREMIAH, DAVID: TITHING
JEWISH TITHING CONCEPTS
JOYNER, RICK: TITHING REBUTTAL
KENDALL, R T: TITHING
KENNEDY, JAMES, PHD: TITHING
KOSTENBERGER, ANDREAS: 12-4-2007
"LAW" IN THE BIBLE
LAWLESS, CHUCK ON TITHING
LETTER TO YOUR PASTOR ABOUT TITHING
LINKS: SITES AND BOOKS
LIST OF TITHING OPPONENTS THROUGHOUT HISTORY
LIST OF UNSCRIPTURAL BAPTIST TITHING ERRORS
LONDON DEBATE: POINT BY POINT COMMENTS
LONDON DEBATE, MAR 30, 2011 TRANSCRIPT
LONDON TV DEBATE DETAILS PLUS
LUTHER, MARTIN REJECTED TITHING: 1525
MALACHI 3:10 HAS BEEN MISINTERPRETED
MALACHI 3:10: THE TEST-GOD TITHE MYTH
MARINELLI, CHAD, WORD OF FAITH
MARTIN, ERNEST L; THE TITHING DILEMMA
MATTHEW 5:17-19
MAXWELL, JOHN C
MELCHIZEDEK: WAS HE A PAGAN GENTILE?
MEYER, ALLAN: TITHING
MONEY WITH GENTILE IMAGES WAS BANNED
MORRIS, ROBERT: Jesus is the Tithe
MORMON-LDS TITHING
NORTH, GARY COVENANTAL TITHE
NORTH, GARY PERSPECTIVES ON TITHING
NORTH, GARY WIKIPEDIA
OWEN, JOHN --DID NOT TEACH TITHING
PAGAN CHRISTIANITY: BOOK REVIEW
PINK, A W: TITHING
PIPER, JOHN: TITHING
POEMS BY H. K. PYWELL
POSITION PAPER FORCES EMPLOYEES TO TEACH TITHING
PREACHERS, EVANGELISTS AND THEOLOGIANS SPEAK OUT
PRINCE, JOSEPH
PROSPERITY GOSPEL: AVANZINI PLUS
PROSPERITY GOSPEL: Jones and Woodbridge
PROSPERITY GOSPEL REFUTATION
RAMSEY, DAVE: TITHING
RENDER UNTO CAESAR
RHODE ISLAND BAPTISTS: 1638-1770S
RICH PREACHERS WHO TEACH TITHING
ROBERTSON, NORMAN: TITHING
ROBINSON, VON ON TITHING
ROGERS, ADRIAN: Tithing Rebuttal
ROGERS, ROD: PASTOR DRIVEN STEWARDSHIP
ROSS, CHARLES: TITHING
SBC CHURCH WANTS YOUR BANK ROUTING NUMBER FOR TITHE
SBC FINANCIAL ABUSE
SBC SCHOLARS: THEOLOGIANS AND HISTORIANS WHO AGREE
SCHREINER, THOMAS SBC
SCHREINER, THOMAS R, PHD, SBTS, TITHING
SHAFFER, GLENN ON TITHING, RUSS KELLY
SIX MOST QUOTED LIES ABOUT TITHING
SOUTHERN BAPTIST ENCYCLOPEDIA: TITHING
SOUTHERN BAPTIST TITHING BROCHURES
SPROUL, R C: TITHING REBUTTAL
SPURGEON, CHARLES H
ST PETERSBURG TIMES
STOREHOUSE TITHING ERROR
SUBMISSION THEOLOGY
SUNDAY SCHOOL LESSON ON TITHING; JANUARY 28, 2007
SWAZILAND, POVERTY, AND PROSPERITY PREACHERS
SWINDOLL, CHARLES (CHUCK): TITHING
TBN: THE CROUCHES: TITHING
TEXT INDEX FOR 2007 EDITION
THEOLOGICAL DOUBLE-TALK
TIMELINE: BAPTIST, SBC and REK BOOK
TITHE MAPS IN 18TH CENTURY EUROPE
TITHES: NEW ADVENT CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
TITHING ABUSE STORIES
TITHE AND OFFERING SCRIPTURES.COM/LEON
WALL STREET JOURNAL: RUSSELL KELLY LETTER
WARREN, RICK ON TITHING
WARREN, RICK: TITHING 2015
WE ARE NOT ALONE: VERY STRONG SUPPORT
Web Sites Which Discuss This Book and Tithing
WESLEY, JOHN
Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?
WIDOW'S MITE
WOODWARD, GEOFF: TITHING
WYCLIFFE DICTIONARY OF THEOLOGY; F F BRUCE
WYTSMA, KEN: TITHING REBUTTAL
YOUNG, ED: TITHING REBUTTAL

russkellyphd@yahoo.com

LONDON TV DEBATE DETAILS PLUS

LONDON DEBATE POINT BY POINT COMMENTS

tithingbookcove.jpg

video essay

video tithing debate

LONDON TITHING DEBATE

REVELATION TV, MARCH 20, 2011

SHOULD THE CHURCH TEACH TITHING?

Russell Earl Kelly and Mike Kola Ewuosho

www.tithing-russkelly.com

www.fowm.org

 

DOUG HARRIS: Welcome to another Revelation TV debate. And debates don’t seek to cause confusion, but rather to give the opportunity for all to present their scriptural position. Each one of us then need to be a good Berean and check the Scriptures to find out what we believe they say.

 

First speaking FOR the motion is the Reverend Mike Kola Ewuosho.

www.fowm.org. His emphasis is on laying a proper foundation and character development.

 

And coming from a different perspective is Russell Earl Kelly, PHD.   www.tithing-russkelly.com. And he is from Georgia.

 

live@revelationtv.com.

 

Each one has ten minutes to present the heart of what they believe.

 

Mike Total Time: 33:43     

Russ Total Time: 30:27

 

0350-1315

Mike: I must confess that when I first got the challenge to be a part of this, I thought it was gonna be normal talk.  But as I studied through it and I looked at what other people have said about it, I realized that it is a deep seated issue that has held the query in the minds of a lot of people for a long time.

 

I’ve heard all the arguments against what I am going to say, but I’m still gonna say my part. [Quotes Gal 3:7] “God preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand.” Therefore the tithe is not part of the Old Testament like it has been argued. The tithe is part of the gospel because the gospel was preached in advance to Abraham. And we all believe, according to Paul’s writing, that the kind of faith we have was exemplified in the person of Abraham.

 

Now if I had the time I want to establish foundationally what giving means to the New Testament church. But because of lack of time I can only take the tip of the iceberg and say that Jesus NEVER condemned tithing. In Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 he actually was condemning the heart of the religious people who were mindful of every other thing but issues of the heart law of justice and mercy and faith. And he said that you should do everything and ought not to have left the tithing undone. So Jesus never condemned tithing. Paul, though he did not mention the word “tithe”, but from Paul’s practices and from Paul’s teachings we can infer in many places that Paul recognized the role of giving and the role of support for ministers of the gospel. And Paul himself, though he didn’t take it, though there’s an argument that Paul was a tentmaker. But the point is that Paul, being a tentmaker, didn’t stop the support he received. And Paul, being a tentmaker, did not stop him having partners in the Philippians and did not stop the fact that Jesus Himself said the laborer is worthy of his wages.

 

So, at the end of the day we can be very picky about words, but when it comes to the PRINCIPLE of giving, you cannot take that from the New Testament. And there are different types of giving.

 

Matthew 6 says Jesus started by teaching that we should give, we should pray and we should fast. Now, there is no other place in the New Testament where fasting is broken down for us to know how to fast, so we have to follow the Old Testament. So when Jesus talked about giving it meant that Jesus expected his listeners to give. And there’s an argument that Jesus lived under the Old Testament, but he preached what the New Testament demanded.

 

That’s why he agreed with certain things in the Old Testament like the prohibition of adultery. He said I will go further than what the law says. You shall not look at a woman to lust after her. And he introduced things that were not in the Old Testament. So he had every freedom to condemn tithing if he felt strongly that it was completely out of sync with what the New Testament sould be.

 

Paul never condemned it; Jesus never condemned it. And when Abraham met Melchizedek in Genesis 14, I’ll tell you what: Psalm 110 talks about Melchizedek; Hebrews 7 talks about Melchizedek.  Every truth is established by the mouth of two or three witnesses. They talk about Melchizedek as being a type of Christ and he received tithes from Abraham and Abraham did it out of faith and honor. So everyone who is in faith today knows inside them that there’s a level of faith and honor that should be in their hearts towards God because He is the provider.

 

[Quotes Genesis 14:18-20] Abraham had had an encounter with God in Genesis 12. He had another encounter with God in Genesis 13. Abraham was already acquainted with the voice of God. So when he heard something similar from Melchizedek, he recognized that this was a priest. And what did Abraham do when he was blessed? He responded with the tithe.

 

For me the tithe represents more than what the Old Testament law says. It represents my heart of honor to God. It represents my faith in God being my source. It represents me recognizing that, if I can put God first, and give him my first part, my tithe first, I can count on God to supply my needs. And to top it all off, thousands of believers around the world have testimonies that tithing has helped them in their finances.

 

Now I don’t know which spirit has been confirming that word in their heart if not the spirit of God. In our church –everywhere I’ve been—people have been testifying that tithing has helped them.

 

But one of the bones of contention today is whether the tithe should be preached in the church. Yes, but not as a law from the Old Testament, but as a spiritual discipline that honors God and puts our faith in God’s ability to meet our needs. Not just as a ritual to be acceptable before God; that’s not the point because we’re already accepted in the beloved, accepted in Christ. But it’s supposed to be our sense of recognition that God is our source and, like Abraham, we honor him for giving us the strength, the wisdom and the grace to do what we have done. So we give our tithes to house of God and we believe him for the ninety per cent that’s remaining and we trust God.

 

Now, I don’t know anybody who has become a giver of all like they say, grace giving is so true, but I don’t know anyone who can give everything to God as far as finances are concerned who has not been trained with the ten per cent.

 

So I see the ten per cent as the beginning, the training ground, upon which now you can give twenty per cent or thirty per cent. But if you’ve never had that training and if you’ve never allowed the law to school you, you will not come to the place where you can give your all.

 

Jesus never condemned tithing. In fact he talked of giving. And Jesus separated giving to the poor from giving to the Lord. How did he separate that? When the alabaster oil was broken over him and the people said, ‘What a waste. This can be used to pay somebody’s salary’, Jesus said, Do not stop that woman from giving because the poor you have with you always. Some people think the whole essence of giving in the New Testament is to give to the poor. I do not agree with that. We give to God. We give to the poor. We give to missions. Even Paul said “None of you except the Philippians are involved with me in giving and receiving.

 

Some people say that Paul was broke. I don’t understand where they got that from. Felix, a governor, wanted to fellowship with Paul so he could get some money from Paul. So Paul was never broke. Paul was not a poor man. Though he worked as a tentmaker; that was a choice he made because he did not want anybody to hold him to ransom. But he also recognized that people could give and support him.

 

So (1) The laborer is worthy of his wages. So those who labor by the gospel should expect to be supported by the gospel. That is scriptural. That is New Testament. (2) Those who have the honor of God in their hearts that God is the source in their lives, they should never be stopped from responding to their heart’s by giving of the tenth of their income and build from there to give their all to God. (3) Those who believe that they shouldn’t give the tithe, they should check in their hearts. They should go to God and ask God questions. If God says don’t give it, that’s between you and God. But what I’ve seen is that the tithe was never condemned in the New Testament; the tithe was an Old Testament practice. And we’re not supposed to practice the tithe in the New Testament with the spirit of the Old Testament. The spirit of the Old Testament is fear and judgment. The spirit in the New Testament is love, faith and honor. (1315)

……………………………………………………

 

BEGINNING YOU TUBE SEBMENTE #2

Doug: Russell is legally blind.

 

1352-2329

Russ: I’ve found a list of very famous Englishmen who agree with me that tithing should not be taught in the churches.  And I think this might be a shock to a lot of Englishmen.

 

John Wycliffe, John Smythe, John Milton, Oliver Cromwell, John Bunyan, the Quakers, John Gill, Adam Clarke, Charles Spurgeon and G. Campbell Morgan.

 

My viewpoint is not new. It is not something that I should be accused of being a heretic for saying because many have followed me. Oh, I forgot the biggest two names of this list but they’re not Englishmen. A man named Martin Luther and a gentleman named John Calvin. All opposed tithing for the church. They said it is not for the church.

 

My first point is that I’m not against church support. A lot of people confuse tithes and offerings. I am fully for supporting the gospel. But I am for it because the New Testament giving principles given to us by the Holy Spirit and blessed by the Holy Spirit are, first of all, freewill, generous, and they’re especially sacrificial. They are joyful. They are not by commandment (2 Cor 9:7). They are motivated by love for God and love for man.

 

And I am convinced that, if the church were to get back to these New Testament giving principles blessed by the Holy Spirit, that we would see a revival. There are too many people – My brother has already made it clear that he does not agree with the position that we shouldn’t teach tithing by a curse and by threatening people. I’m glad he takes that position because I agree with him there.

 

But there are many people across the UK and the US and everywhere else that are afraid to come to church. They are embarrassed to come to church. They think if they come to church, they are going to go home being cursed because they have not to tithe. They go home because they feel inadequate that they feel unwelcome because they cannot put so much in the offering plate.

 

I am for giving. But I think the word “tithe” should be replaced by the word “sacrificial” giving. The reason I say that, and I said this on CBS News a couple of years ago. I make a statement that is a bold daring statement that “Not one single thing taught by the church today concerning tithing is biblical.” I know you don’t like that. Let me say it again, “Not one single thing taught by the church concerning tithing today is biblical.”

 

Now go back to the definition of “tithing.” There are 16 texts in the word of God that define the contents of the “tithe” and in each text the tithes is always “only food, from God’s holy land of Israel, which God has miraculously increased by His own hand. Biblical tithes could not come from what man produced; they could not come from what man increased. They could not come from Gentiles. And, especially, they could not come from outside the holy land of Israel.

 

Now I stand by that definition and in ten years I have yet had anybody prove to me that that definition is incorrect. So, right off the bat, I believe that the definition everybody uses for tithing is wrong.

 

But then the argument comes up, well they didn’t have money in those days; therefore the tithe was barter – you traded food for items. The book of Genesis alone contains the word “money” 32 times; the word “money” occurs 44 times before the word “tithe” occurs in Leviticus 27. So money was very common in the Old Testament. As a matter of fact, money was required for sanctuary service. If you were to bring a vow, if you were to pay a fine, if you were to pay the shekel (the head tax) – even slaves bought their freedom with money. If money was required in the sanctuary service, then I ask “Why was money never included in any definition of tithing in the Old Testament?”

 

We will probably go round and round with Genesis 14 and Abraham. That’s usually where debates go to.  I contend that, in the first place, it was not Abraham; it was Abram. He was still an uncircumcised Gentile in Genesis 14. He was not circumcised until chapter 17.  Second, I point out that what Abram tithed was not a holy tithe. It was from pagan spoils of war which he had gathered from those who had sacked Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

The main thing I point out about Abram, or Abraham, is that nowhere does the Bible say WHY Abram tithed. But all of the tithe teachers (I concede that) all of the commentaries which discuss Genesis 14 – every commentary I’ve ever seen say that Abraham tithed because he freely chose to do so. Well, I contend the Word of God does not say that. And I offer that, since Abram was born and raised in Babylon that he probably learned tithing from the Babylonians and that tithes in Abram’s time were the law of the land. This is new to a lot of people. The law of the land required that tithes of spoils of war be brought to your local king priest. And, therefore, Abraham was not obeying a command of God. I suggest he was obeying the common law of the land and that can be proven by many many sources.

 

But Abraham was the father of faith. Yes, but not everything Abraham did was motivated by faith. We say we should give the tithe because Abraham gave ten per cent. Well, what do we do with this – Abraham gave the 90 per cent to the king of Sodom? Do we look up our local witches’ coven in London and say “Here’s my 90%? I’m following Abraham’s example. So how far do we go with Abraham’s example as a father of faith?

 

We are taught that we should begin our level of giving at ten per cent. Sounds good. It’s a good place to start. It’s the good training wheels as Randy Alcorn says and many others say. It’s a great place to start. It really sounds good – ten per cent is a good place to start.

 

But think about this. In the Bible ten per cent was only a minimum standard beginning place of giving for food producers who lived inside Israel. Period. If you were a Jew living outside Israel, you could not tithe at all. If you were a Gentile you could not tithe at all. If you were a carpenter like Jesus, or a tentmaker like Paul, or a fisherman like Peter, you could not tithe at all because what you produce is not the increase that God has miraculously increased from his holy land.

 

Therefore when we talk about tithing we completely ignore the biblical definition. We redefine it and use it for our own purposes.

 

The next thing that we ignore – in the Bible the tithe went to –not the priests – but to the Levites. And the Levites were the servants to the priests. They did all the work of the temple except minister the sacrifices and the blood which is the important thing – right?

 

They were the janitors; they were the skinners; they were the singers; they were the guards; they were the trumpeters; they made the bread. They did everything except minister the blood. They were the Levites. They received the tithe. And they, in turn, gave the best one per cent (a tenth of a tenth) to the priests. That’s the only time that the tithe is the “best.” It’s not even the “first.” It’s the “tenth.” And the priests got one per cent of the tithe. But they also got a lot of other things. They all the vow offerings; they got parts of the (sacrifices). The priests were well off because of that.

 

The tithing statute is not Malachi 3; it is Numbers 18. And in Numbers 18, if you receive the tithe, you are not allowed to own land or property. We would have a problem with that today because a lot of tithe preaching preachers today on the Internet seem to own a lot of land.

 

So if you’re gonna teach tithing, teach all of it. If you’re gonna teach tithing, don’t teach ten per cent; teach 23% because in the Old Testament the tithe was 23%. (2339)

 

Doug to Mike: That issue of actually defining what tithing is – it was the produce of the land of Israel – had absolutely nothing to do with finances. Where do we get from that, even we take it from the Old Testament? Where do we take it that now we are talking ten per cent in money in the New Testament?

 

2415-2629

Mike: When Abraham offered his own tithe, it wasn’t the produce of the land. It was the spoil. And if you watch the prayer that Melchizedek offered, he said [quotes Genesis 14:18-20] Now when Abraham did that, it wasn’t the produce of the land.

 

I think one of the things that we need to understand is that there are PRINCIPLES, for example the principle of sacrifice. Abraham offered animal sacrifice; we don’t. But we still have the principle of sacrifice. So we can’t say that because we are not offering animal sacrifices then the PRINCIPLE is gone.

 

So there is the principle of tithing. There is the principle of sacrifices. And any other principle you find in the Old Testament before the law that God sanctioned. The principle can still be maintained without the actual thing. So when the law came in, the principle of tithing was now being expressed through the produce of the land.

 

Now, if you take the produce of the land as the absolute definition of tithing, then you will lose the principles because there are many other laws in the Old Testament that we do not practice the way they did it. For instance the principle of the sacrifice of animals. We say Jesus is the sacrificial lamb, but we still have the principle that Jesus bore my sins. So we don’t go back and do exactly what they did but we take the principle. So even in the New Testament we still offer sacrifices of praise. We still offer our bodies as a living sacrifice because of the principles.

 

So, if you are looking at tithing purely as the produce of the land in the Old Testament, you are right. But if you look at the principle of honoring God –the principle of, even Paul wrote about that when he was talking about himself, defending himself, for not taking money, he said, “Is it not written, does the law not say, does the Lord not say, that they who live by it shall feed out of it” and he referred to Numbers 18 where tithing was the subject. (2629)

 

(2633-2733)

Russ: You have used the word “principle” about twenty times. I guess if you use it enough, it ingrains us and we start believing it. The trouble is the Word of God never calls it a principle. You are assuming that Abraham tithed because he loved God or was doing it in response or thanks to God and I am saying that the Word of God does not say WHY Abraham tithed.

 

You say that the principle is changed from spoils of war (well that’s an odd principle) to the produce of the land. If you want to go out and defeat your enemy and give his spoils and give it to the church and say “Here’s my tithe” I’m all for that because that wasn’t covered in the law. But how do you change a principle FROM spoils of war (that came out of Sodom and Gomorrah of all places) TO the produce from God’s holy land?

 

In the New Testament the spoils of war were accepted, but they were not used as pay for the Levites and priests. (2753)

 

2754-2907

Mike: What about the sacrifice, or promise of tithe, that Jacob offered? Jacob said, “If you will bring me back to this place.” What he was saying basically is “You will be my God if you provide for me and protect me.” He wasn’t talking about the spoils or the fruit of any land. He was talking about his own labor and protection. So that’s why I use the word “principle.”

 

The principle I’m talking about here is not about the actual thing I offered as a tithe. The principle is an acknowledgement that God is my source and God has given me the victory and I respond to him in that. From Genesis 14 when Abraham did that to Genesis 28 where Jacob promised that, I see a principle.

 

It’s like saying, who taught Adam and Eve that killing an animal would cover their nakedness. God taught them that. So God taught them the principle of sacrifice of animals for sin was established. That’s what I mean by principle.  The point is that I see what deep in the Old Testament and I learn how God’s heart responds to it and I embrace God’s heart in the light of the New Testament. (2907)

 

2928-3030

Russ: You mentioned Jacob. Notice it is Jacob and not Israel at this time. His name is still Jacob. He is still the Supplanter. He is still the schemer. Jacob sets the bargain, the conditions. Jacob is telling God what to do. And I really dare --- I hope we don’t do that in our churches today. “God, IF you bring me back safely and all this stuff, THEN I will give. That’s telling God what to do. That’s a little bit audacious and I think that story is a reflection, not of Jacob’s love and response, but his scheming with God. “I’m gonna make sure I get my share, God. I’m gonna tell you what to do. I think Jacob is a negative and, on top of that, Jacob’s gift was a vow. And by being a vow it was a freewill offering. It does not fit the description of tithing under the law. (3030)

 

3031-3037

Mike: That is exactly my point. The tithing I am talking about is not under the law. That’s my point. (3037)

 

Doug: Malachi 3:8-10. That is used to teach that we must bring ten per cent into the local church, the storehouse. It’s got to go to the local and nowhere else. And, secondly, if we do that, God is gonna bless us abundantly. So we better do it; otherwise we’re in trouble. Mike, is that what you are saying? Is that what you are teaching?

 

3140-3321

Mike: Once again I go back to my principle. When I look at any pattern in the Bible, I look at three sides of it. I look at the human side; I look at God’s side; I look at the enemy’s side; that’s the part that folks don’t look at. (3321)

 

When I looked at the Malachi account, it occurred to me that there must be something in the heart of God because Malachi (don’t just take on the third chapter). Malachi had a string of corrections that he was bringing to the nation of Israel. How did they dishonor God; how did they get involved with divorce; and all of that stuff. When you look at each of those things there is a way it means something to God that they should not dishonor him, not to encourage adultery or divorce. So if Malachi was correct in this string of things that was going on and he now mentions the tithe. That tells me that God thinks so much about the tithe that he would mention it. Now before we get into the legality of whether or not they should do it. That tells about the heart of God that he is not pleased with these people because they are not offering their tithes and offerings. That tells me straightaway that I need to seek what that means to God’s heart rather than ..   This whole debate is because some people are abusing it; some are using it wrongly and I – nobody should thrown the baby and the bath water away. We can correct it without doing that. We can correct the abuse of certain things. We can correct the excesses that are going on in the body, but don’t for heaven’s sake throw the baby and the bath water away.

 

The principle is that God did not like --- if you take the same principle that you cannot commit adultery in the Old Testament, would it make it any less important? (3321)

 

Doug: But Mike, I want an answer to my question. Please, please answer my question. I know you are a wonderful preacher and you’re gonna get there.

 

3333-3407

Mike: I am a foundation specialist. If I say anything without building the foundation to it, you wouldn’t get the message clearly. The answer is this, Yes, I do not agree with those who take that scripture and slam it on the New Testament church and say you are cursed. Why? Because Paul already told us we are redeemed from the curse of the law. That’s number one. Number two, I do believe and I stand to be corrected, that the tithe should go to the storehouse. Storehouse in this context can be and should be the local church. And I know that I’ll be crucified for that.

 

Doug: So you are correlating the storehouse in Malachi with the local church.

 

3415-3440

Mike: And, three, I believe that any act of obedience attracts a blessing. Abraham proved it when he offered Isaac. So I believe that obedience attracts a blessing. However I believe that our true motivation for any giving should be our love for God and our love for humanity. (3440)

 

Doug: Could I just pin you down one little bit more? If you are giving ten per cent money, is the blessing that God’s gonna pour out that you’re not gonna be able to contain more money back to you?

 

Mike: That’s a good one.

 

Doug: It is a good one.

 

3500-3528

Mike: You see, the blessings of God are of multiple facets. And so many times when we talk about God giving back to us in terms of money, the answer is “yes” but not the way that everybody talks about it like “God’s gonna pour out so much money that they will not be room to contain.” Now that is not what I teach. What I teach is that God is gonna give you as much as your character can handle the blessing of God. God will bless you and wants to enlighten your coasts. (3528)

 

Doug: He’ll bless you with money because you have given money.

 

3530-3536

Mike: If you give money, God will bless you with money.

 

Doug: Forgive me for pinning you down. I’ll do the same to Russell.

 

Doug: Malachi 3; how do you see it, Russell, please.

 

3545-3813

Russ: I could spend and hour and a half on it.

 

Doug: You ain’t going' to.

 

Russ: In the first place, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Owen and people like that very often say “The first hermeneutic, that’s called a principle of interpretation”

 

Mike: Thank you.

 

Russ: It is a principle. The first principle of interpretation when you look at the Bible is “To whom was it written? Was it written to me?” The book of Malachi was written to Israel. And in chapter 1:6 and 2:1 it was narrowed down to the priests. In Malachi the priests were stealing from God. And they were cursed four times in Malachi 1:13-14 and 2:1-2 [audience photo]. And I think the parallel passage in Nehemiah 13:5-10 shows that the priests had stolen the tithe out of the storerooms in the temple and the Levites had nothing to eat and the Bible says they went back home to their Levitical cities and they closed the temple down. So there’s another instance where the priests had stolen the tithe and I think this filters over into Malachi.

 

I think when Malachi says “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, it is not addressed to the people but to the priests who had removed the tithe from the storehouse in Nehemiah 13:5. I know that nobody has ever heard that, but let me narrow it down.

 

The storehouse in the temple was at most 3 meters by 6 meters or 10 by 20 feet and you cannot put all the tithe of the nation into a little room 10 feet by 20 feet. And it’s absurd. Hezekiah found that out in 2 Chronicles 31. They had to pile it up on the street so it would rot and the bugs could eat it.

 

The people in the Old Testament were commanded to bring the tithes, not to the Temple, but to the Levitical cities. Now where did you come up with that? Nehemiah 10:37 says that the people shall being the tithes to the Levitical cities. That’s because 98% of the Levites and priests lived in the Levitical cities. [end 2nd segment]

 

I would hate to be a priest living 200 miles from London and I had to go to London every time I wanted to eat. I think the whole text has been misconstrued. (3813)

 

Doug: So you are saying that the tithe there was not money. It was food that was given to the Levites and the storehouse was the literal storehouse.

 

3825-3901

Russ: May I add the text says “that there may be ‘what?’ FOOD. [audience good]. This is 1000 years after Moses. It is still only food. And Matthew 23, 500 years later, “Woe unto you scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites, you tithe ‘what?’ mint and (cumin) which are ‘what?’ FOOD. No mention of money. Tithe never changes from food from inside God’s holy land. That was the principle. The principle is that what you are tithing is what God has miraculously increased and not what you have increased by your skills and craft.  (3901)

 

Doug: Audience and email response. Any comments about what you’ve heard so far?

 

MICHAEL MANTOCK: Is a principle a doctrine? (3948)

 

Doug: We’ll definitely come back to that. Give me time to think about that.

 

Lady: When we come to Christ, we come to him through free will. He is the second Adam. Quotes Romans 8:1 “There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” I’ve spoken to so many people who don’t go to church primarily because of this business of the tithe. And that isn’t fair because Christ didn’t condemn them. He loves us all. And he says that he’s no respecter of people. So praise the Lord for that. Let’s not be condemning people. Let’s be loving.

 

Doug: They liked that. Well, three people like that.

 

Man in dark: Some say that the tithe is outdated because the tithe was given to the Levite and there is no Levite presently because Paul said we are all kingdom priests. So if everybody is a kingdom priest, who do we pay tithe to?

 

Lady on Front Row (Ewuosho’s wife) gives long testimony.

 

Email from Man: My parents are sick and dying. Do I give my tithe to help them or give it to the church?

 

Email: [anti tithing] Unscrupulous pastors use intimidation and dishonor God.] Michael

 

Email: Guide only. Jasmine

 

Email: Blessed greatly after tithing. Gordon

 

Dale [Rev TV employee]: Pro tithe testimony

 

Doug to Russ: Taking some of those issues of people who have been blessed for tithing. We’ve had this whole comment that “yes” we should tithe to the church so they can minister to other people. Don’t you think we should tithe?

 

4641-4800

Russ: You take any 100 people and there is going to be 4-10 of those who are blessed whether they are tithing, whether they are giving freewill offerings, whether they’ve gone to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People and are good salesmen, or whether they are atheists and follow those same principles. You’re still gonna have a certain percentage.

 

We don’t hear from –the churches march these people up who have success stories on tithing, but what about the other 9 out of 10 who have been tithing for years and their family is still in the ghettos and the slums and they are not motivated, they can’t get a job, they’re not qualified, yet they’ve been tithing and tithing and yet they are afraid that, if they quite tithing, if I stop today, my money tree is gonna come in next week.

 

And I see these people everywhere I go and they’re crying out. I see these people and say –my own wife says “I was told whether to pay my tithe or buy insulin for my husband, and the preacher told me that if I didn’t pay my tithe I would be cursed. Well, that’s multiplied over and over and over to our audience right now. There are people who are relating to that story.

 

I want him to answer that question. Do we tithe first and then worry about how to buy medicine, pain medicine for our dying mother or what? (4800)

 

Doug: I’m gonna bring that one to him. So what you’re saying is that success stories don’t bring about a principle of what we should do.

 

4813-4844

Russ: We serve a New Covenant God, not an Old Covenant God. God promised to end the Old Covenant and to bring in the New Covenant under better promises. And you cannot say God has blessed me because I have obeyed an Old Covenant conditional promise that if I tithe He will bless me. God is not there. God is not operating today in 2011 under the Old Covenant. He blesses us according to New Covenant giving principles. (4844)

 

Doug to Mike: When Dale was sharing (his success story) I heard a big Amen. In other words you feel that such stories like that prove your point. I can see it all over your face. But there are many many stories of people that actually have tithed and are in debt today because they have tithed. Therefore, surely, number one, those stories don’t prove a doctrine at all. And, secondly, there is this issue that “Here I am; I’ve so much money. Do I go and buy the medicine or do I give it to the local church?” Again, very emotive, but very real principle.

 

4940-5028

Mike: That’s why I like to go back to foundational understanding. You see, because if you don’t have the right foundational understanding and orientation, you are bound to run into these problems and you don’t have answers to them. The foundation is Jesus Christ. Now, did he die just to make sure we went to heaven, or he had other things in mind? That’s one big question. Because the Bible says, “By his stripes we are healed.” And there are people who have been sick and died and went to heaven though Jesus made provision for their healing.

 

The Bible also says he was made poor. Paul said that we through his poverty might be made rich. There is provision Christ for us to come out of poverty. (5028)

 

Doug: Again, you would take that poverty totally as a financial thing. Is that right?

 

5035-5045

Mike: It’s a whole all-compassing thing. You see, I came from Africa, so we understand poverty. Now you guys don’t have a clue what poverty sounds like. (5045)

 

Doug: There’ll be some British people that would absolutely disagree.

 

5054-5151

Mike: The point I’m making is that, if Jesus Christ is all-encompassing, then it stands to reason, why is it that some people don’t get healed? Why is it that some people don’t get blessed?, the reasons can be multiple. However, as far as the provision is concerned, let’s get established the fact that it is so.

 

I heard him say that the God of the New Testament doesn’t bless you like that. I stand to disagree. The same God of Abraham is the same God of the Old Testament and is the same God in the New Testament. [applause] He hasn’t changed. What has changed has been the method of our approach unto him. It’s not that God changed. The Bible says that I am the Lord, He changes not. So why would you tell me that the God who blessed somebody for obedience does not bless now when you obey? (5151)

 

Doug: Again, I know that I could let you go and you could preach for an hour. But I really want to bring you back because there is something here that is a real problem. There are people listening to us tonight that have tithed and have been blessed. And they’re doing O.K.

 

Mike: And he said they are a small percentage. (5212)

 

Doug: But there are people listening tonight who are in deep trouble because they tithe. And maybe they feel what you’ve just said does bring them condemnation (a word that was used) because you are saying that God didn’t want you to do that. Now how do you answer that one?

 

5233-5335

Mike: I am not saying God does not want to bless. I am saying that as far as the provision is concerned, because, you see, I had a situation before when somebody prayed for somebody and nothing happened as if God did not want to heal that person. But I remember in the Bible when the disciples prayed for somebody, they said, ”Master, why couldn’t we cast out that devil?” and He taught them how to do it better.

 

Now that means there is room for us to grow and develop so, if there is somebody listening to me right now who has enough to buy their insulin and they are thinking whether to give it to the church and tithe, Please buy your insulin and stay alive. (5335)

 

Russ: Amen.

 

5340-5347

Mike: Because there is no law. Because I have taken the law concept out of the Old Testament completely, because the spirit of the Old Testament is the spirit of judgment. It is the spirit of do it or else. Now that is the difference. If you are not healed and not blessed, you can go back to God in humility of heart and God can show you what to do to get out of whatever quagmire you are in. (5347)

 

Doug: But you are saying yes, give ten per cent to your local church.

 

Mike: I am saying that, yes. (5347)

 

5347-5407

Russ: That’s not what I heard him say. He said “Give the insulin and don’t tithe.” He conceded the point. And he misquoted me. I did not say that God doesn’t bless under the – I said that God does not bless today under the Old Covenant principles. He is a New Covenant God.(5407

 

Mike: O.K.

 

Russ: You misquoted me then.

 

Mike: I’m sorry then.

 

Russ: Are you from Nigeria?

 

Mike: Very much.

 

5413-5438

Russ: I read stories every day on the Internet. And there are churches all over Nigeria where the people are living on dirt floors in shacks and their preachers are rich. And the government is getting upset about it. The government is about to change the law and put a stop to all that stuff. And don’t tell me that’s not true. I read it every single day in the African newspapers. (5438)

 

Doug to Russ: I’m not absolutely clear what you’re saying we do. In other words you’re clearly saying that tithing is not to be taught in the church. In practical terms, what are you saying that people should do? God has given them X amount of money and X amount of money is coming into the home. What are you saying that we as Christians should do with that?

 

5508-5617

Russ: The first paragraph on my web site says I support church finances. I also say that a lot of people are really living above their means and therefore they can’t tithe because they are living above their means.

 

Second Corinthians, chapter 8, verses 12-14 gives the equality principle. Now I look at that equality principle as saying there are many in the church that could and should give more than ten per cent. A lot of rich people stop at ten per cent. “O. K. I’ve met what God requires.” A lot of people in the church should give more than ten per cent. But there are some people who are giving sacrificially even though only one or two per cent. Even that hurts them because they still got to come home and worry about medicine and food and shelter. It averages out. Those who give more than ten per cent and those who give less –it averages out. And equality doesn’t mean everybody gives the same percentage. It means the principle that everybody gives to the best of your ability. Don’t set a percentage and don’t start at ten per cent. (5617)

 

Doug to Russ: So the principle is giving sacrificially.

 

5624-5656

Russ: Sacrificially, as Christ gave sacrificially. Do not look at percentages. Look at what point –some people have never given to the point they might go home and miss it. “I can’t go to the lake or to the festival or to some amusement park because” – some people never reach that point. They have not given sacrificially. They may give a tithe but they have never given to the point where it actually amounted to something that they actually noticed it out of their checkbook. 5656

 

Doug to Russ: And what you’re saying also is to be free as to where you give this, not necessarily to the local church.

 

5706-5750

Russ: I think the local church should be foremost. At the same time I point out in the Old Testament, not one tithe in the Old Testament ever went to support a mission station where the Jews and the Levites and the priests took that tithe and went out and built a mission station to convert the Gentiles. There is no precedent there. [good audience response and view]. Neither in the Old Testament is there any time when the tithe was ever used to build the temple or church buildings. There is no precedent there.

 

If there is no precedent in the Old Testament, how can you say that today we use tithes to pay for missionaries. I’m all for supporting missionaries but don’t call it tithing. Call it freewill sacrificial giving. (5750)

 

Doug to Mike: Don’t you think, Mike, there is a problem here, that if you say ten per cent and if you say tithing, many people are gonna say that’s all I’m gonna give. The only problem they have is do I tithe on the gross or net. Don’t you think there is a problem even saying that tithing is a principle and not taking it completely out onto sacrificial giving?

 

5825-5915

Mike: I see tithing as a discipline that you can be challenged to start. Because anybody who has the privilege to teach has gone from tithing to giving beyond the tithe. So when giving, that’s why I wanted to establish the principle of giving, that’s why I wanted to say that.

 

Doug: Is a principle a doctrine?

 

Mike: It is similar in many respects. I like what somebody said that “Don’t you think the tithe is obsolete now and not of God.” In a sense, yes because of the Old Testament way of practicing the tithe. I think I like what Russell has said as well about sacrificial giving. My question is, “How do you get people to the point of sacrificial giving if there’s no structured training that brings them to sacrificial giving?” Nobody’s gonna wake up one morning and say “I’m gonna give everything I’ve got.” There’s got to be a teaching process that brings people to the place of sacrificial giving.” [applause] (5914)

 

Doug: Can you come back to that, Russell?

 

5921-

Russ: There are churches out there that have been teaching tithing for generations and they still have twenty or thirty members. The secret to a growing church is not that you teach tithing. I’ll guarantee you don’t teach tithing that often. I can tell. [laughter from audience] I’ll bet when you stand up before your church you teach soul winning and evangelism and salvation sermons. (0020)

 

Mike: I do. I do.

 

5943

Russ: And your members run out that door saying “Oh, I tithed today.” No, they say “People got saved today and I want more people saved and I want to give more to see more people saved. (5950)

 

Mike: [hand gestures cheering]

 

5950

Russ: it ain’t got anything to do with tithing. It’s evangelism; it’s about teaching people how to lead others to Christ. It ain’t got nothing to do with tithing.

 

John MacArthur in the United States has a 20,000 member church. They don’t teach tithing. Everybody says “How in the word is our church gonna survive if we don’t teach tithing?” Preach soul-winning and personal evangelism. It’ll thrive and you ain’t gotta mention tithing. People are gonna run out that church wanting to give money. (6020)

 

Doug: That was very eloquently put. Better than I could have put it.

 

Doug to Mike: You said, let’s start with the tithe and move up. It seems to me that so many churches I hear that teach tithing never get beyond that. Every week it’s tithing, tithing. You are saying “Let’s start with (???) tithing.” I don’t hear that happening.

 

10046-

Mike: Yeah, because you haven’t listened to me. R. T. Kendall, I have his book here. He talks a lot about tithing cuz he mentioned a few of the British guys. R.T. Kendall was one of the recent one.

 

Doug: Was he British?

 

Mike: He was an American but he was in the Westmnister Chapel.  The point I’m making is this. You see, the whole concept of discipleship is process. And if we take the letter of the law and not the spirit of it, a lot of times we do more damage than good. In the sense that, for instance, when I hear, Should the Church Teach Tithing, my mind goes to Should the Church Teach Giving? rather than say “tithing.”

 

Now if the word “tithing” connotes Old Testament alone, then you know you could argue a point, but if the word “tithing” means “tenth,” then I could say, “You know what, Abraham did it. So, if I disciple anybody, for instance, I wouldn’t teach them once you’ve paid your tithe you don’t owe. I want to let them understand that, as a believer your whole life belongs to God.

 

Doug: (tries to interrupt) (Mike blocks with his hands)

 

6155

Mike: Let me …. So your respect for God’s role in your finances starts by you honoring God (very low) with your tithe. (204)

 

Doug: Absolutely, but I’m not convinced that that happens with the word “tithing.” Don’t you think that many people take that word “tithing” and actually just look upon it as like the Old Testament and the ten per cent? (220)

 

6221-234

Mike: Well, if they do that, that’s because they either are not living out the reality of the New Testament in themselves or they’re just limited in their understanding.  (234)

 

Doug to Russ: How much of tithing is actually taught in the New Testament?

 

6230-443

Russ: After Calvary? Before Calvary Jesus mentioned it three times and, in each case he was actually condemning the tithe teachers. Jesus taught under the law. He was teaching matters of the law. And if Jesus had not taught tithing, he could have been a sinner. He could not have saved me. So Jesus had to teach tithing because it was under the law still. He also couldn’t have taught the Gentiles to tithe because they wouldn’t have accepted that. So he couldn’t teach the Gentiles to tithe.

 

Outside of Jesus, the only time tithing is mentioned is Hebrews, chapter 7. We believe the “first use law” that the first time a text is used it means more. Well, Hebrews 7:5 says “for the priests have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law.” So you’ve got the first time in Hebrews the word “tithe,” the word “commandment” and the word “law” appear. Therefore I say verse 5 is a key verse. [audience shown] Well, you look at verse 12 and it says “for the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change also of the law.” It has to be referring at least to the law of tithing in verse 5 because it is the only other time in Hebrews 7 he’s mentioned the word “law.” Well, what was the priesthood changed to? It was changed from Aaron to Melchizedek. But was it changed from paying the tithes to Levi and Aaron –from them to the gospel workers? No. Because in verse 18 he said “Therefore there is a disannulling of the commandment going before.” Well, the “commandment going before” is “the priests have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law.” Therefore, than change was from the “commandment to take tithes” to it being “disannulled.” It’s been abolished. It no longer exists. I don’t know how you can explain that any clearer. (443)

 

Doug to Mike: Can you explain that any clearer?

 

6447-538

Mike: Yes, I’ll try. Now what I read here is that he was saying that Melchizedek was a type of Christ. Now, once again, why would he be emphasizing that even the Levites gave tithe in the bosom of Abraham? What is the significance about that if he was trying to teach only the change of the Levitical priesthood? Why was he making it clear that the one who came in the person and type of the son of God to take tithes from Abraham and even the Levites who take tithes under the law gave tithes under the bosom of the loins of Abraham?

 

That must mean that God must think something about the tithe. That’s the way I read that. [audience photo] So when I read the change of the Levitical priesthood, I also read the change of tithing from Aaron to Christ. (538)

 

Russ: What text? (10538)

 

Mike: What text?

 

Russ: What text says it was changed from Aaron to Christ?

 

Mike: The same one you just read (544)

 

6545

Russ: Verse 18 says “Therefore there is a disannulling of the commandment going before.“

 

Mike: Yes.

 

Russ: It didn’t change it from Aaron to Christ. It disannulled it.

 

Mike: Who’s the new high priest?

 

Doug: Yeah but he said he’s using the word “abolished” which it said ---

 

Russ: I’m asking for a text. He didn’t give me one. (600)

 

Mike: Yeah, but ---

 

Doug to Mike: Don’t you feel that the lack of teaching of tithing in the New Testament is significant?

 

6620-733

Mike: Yes, there is some significance there. Like I said when I started preparing for this I realized how much the opposite view has to say has some points. But what it just did to me was to adjust my emphasis rather than take it out completely.

 

In the sense that, if the New Testament saints do not teach it directly as tithe, but inferred it many times, cuz we read in First Corinthians 9 when Paul was speaking He said “Didn’t the Lord Himself ordain that those who preach the gospel should live of the gospel?” And he also referred to “If we have sown spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap carnal things?” and “Do you know that those who minister of the holy things of the temple and they which wait at the altar are partakers of the altar?” and all of this was taken from Numbers 18 [audience view] where the tithe was talked about. I’ll say. (long pause) O.K. So I’ll say that the lack of clear teaching on the tithe in the New Testament just helps me to see how I will adjust a bit but not completely take it out because of my understanding that it’s a principle that can develop somebody to the point where they can give their all to God. (73)

 

6738-856

Russ: First Corinthians 9 –he says that it infers tithing. Actually the text is self-destructive because--. First Corinthians 9:13 mentions about those who work in the temple were supported by things of the temple but that opens the door to far more than tithing. It opens the door to all the offerings, the vows, the sacrifices, the firstfruits –everything. Everything. So First Corinthians 9 is talking about everything in the temple sanctuary. Then you can’t say verse 14 says “therefore, even so we live by Christian [should be law] principles.” Because that would force us to teach everything verse 13 teaches. The principle is in First Corinthians, chapter 9, verses 7-14 is that each vocation, occupation, provides principles for its own support. He mentions the herdsman, he mentions the soldier, he mentions the vine dresser, he mentions the ox grinding grain, he mentions the temple and he finally gets [to the church]. The principle for church support is principles of grace. We live by the principles of faith and grace in the New Covenant. That’s the New Covenant. He is setting a new principle that we live by it. (856)

 

Mike: Any comments from the audience?

 

Lady: I do tithe but we need to remember there is no condemnation for those who don’t tithe. [edited]

 

Man: I firmly believe in tithing and there’s been a lot of talk tonight about condemnation of the church. That doesn’t mean we should stop tithing. [Gives good pro tithing testimony.] [applause]

 

Doug: Once again, there’ll be a lot of people who have a different view of that.

 

Michael Mantock: I come back to the question, is tithing a principle or a doctrine? The Bible is very very plain.

 

Doug to MM: You answer that question for us then.

 

Michael Mantock: He was blessed because he gave freewill from his heart. It has nothing to do with tithing. As Russell basically indicated, tithing has to do with Israel and basically with the fruit of the land. Nothing to do with Christians today.  An example of Christians today –many Christians are under the bondage of false ministers who are stealing from them and they must be exposed. (11147)

 

Email: Pro tithing testimony

 

Email: Anti tithing testimony. [edited] “Peter, an Apostle had no money. Why didn’t he just start tithing to get more money? Why didn’t he teach poor people to tithe so the curse of being poor could be broken? [Russ is laughing] … Let’s root out the false teaching and give because there is reward in heaven.” Tony

 

Email: Pro tithing comment. People are in debt because they do not learn to live on the 90%. [all laugh and applaud]

 

Email: Do your guests believe that every word in the Bible is inspired? … So either we do what the Bible says or we don’t, but don’t make excuses. Tithing is a biblical principle. Ruth [edited]

 

Doug to Mike: It is an interesting point there that they are making. She says that we are to tithe 10% of our increase. Now, how do you work out what your increase is? What is increase? [edited]

 

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Mike: Anything that comes to you is increase. If it is beyond what you had just before you received it, it’s an increase.

 

Doug: Even though, maybe, I get that money in and I’ve got my mortgage and I’ve got my council tax. Surely it’s not increase because the wages I get in are already committed. Surely all of that isn’t increase. How practical do you see this? [some edit]

 

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Mike: That’s always the problem because, in the New Testament the focus is the heart and not the acts. If you don’t major on the heart in the New Testament you will always be faulty in the acts. So I cannot legislate to somebody and say “In spite of your mortgage, in spite of your bills, you must go and tithe because that is an issue of the heart for that person.

 

And that is an issue of the heart and the relationship of the New Testament with God in that person’s heart. Now that’s the reason why we don’t teach tithing from the angle of the law. We preach it as a discipline. (537)

 

Doug: Tell us what the difference it. You’re saying that it’s not the law, but you’re preaching it to your people as a discipline which they are putting themselves under because you are preaching it.

 

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Mike: I’ll tell you what it is.  You see, in the New Testament, when you’re born again your heart has been affected. You already have a loving heart because your spirit has been recreated. You want to give; you want to love; you want to serve; it’s all established there. But you have a soul. Your soul has been trained in selfishness. Your soul has been trained in all kinds of things before you came to God. So what we try to do is help people understand you have a relationship with God now. Now your soul needs to be retrained so that you can understand how to overcome the fears and the limitations that your soul imposes. That’s the principle that the tithe comes in. If you cannot trust God, like somebody else said, it’s because of freewill; it’s not because of tithe. It is out of freewill because the New Testament tithing is freewill giving. It’s not a legalistic giving. Do you understand?

 

Doug: I’m, I’m, I’m trying to.

 

Mike: If you know that you’re born again and you know God owns you by creation and by redemption and everything you have you owe it to him, then you can bring your issues to God in prayer and God can stir faith in you. What is missing in most of what we talk about is the faith element. You see, without the faith element –you talk about seed sowing—some people don’t believe in seed sowing. Do you know the words you speak, the thoughts you think, and the acts you act –that all are seeds you plant? You don’t know that. Some people who know now watch what they say, watch what they do, cuz it is a faith thing. The just shall live by faith and faith is of the heart. (727)

 

Doug to Russ: Would you agree with that, that everything we do is a faith thing and especially bringing it back to the fact of this increase which, in the Old Testament which you said yourself it is the increase -- surely, to use that dreaded word, that principle is there in the New Testament of our increase we should be tithing?

 

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Russ: First, both of us soundly believe that the Word of God is inspired. Let the callers not worry about that. Second, he has just spoken for about five minutes nonstop without mentioning a single Bible text. It’s oratory. He’s not basing his arguments on a single Bible text. How do you deal with that?

 

If Abraham gave his tithe out of faith, then what did he give his 90% to the king of Sodom out of?

 

Mike: Faith.

 

Russ: He did that out of faith too?! Maybe we ought to take our 90% and go down and give it to the local alcoholic. (830)

 

Mike: God Almighty made Abraham rich.

 

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Russ: When Abraham in Genesis 12 lied about his wife, he came out of that deal smelling like a rose. When Abraham does what he should do to earn something, he keeps nothing because God’s gonna bless him no matter what he did.

 

Mike: Why?

 

Russ: Because he’s His chosen vessel. He’s His chosen vessel. And we never read anywhere in the Word of God where Abraham ever tithed again other than the spoils of war.

 

Romans 8:1 has been quoted several times already, “There is no therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. But Romans 8:2 says “for the law of the spirit of life in Christ has made us free from the law of sin and death.” That’s the New Testament law of love. It’s not the Old Covenant Mosaic law. It’s the law of love.

 

The Holy Spirit is indwelling us, God’s Temple. Therefore, as we yield to it we become sanctified and grow more and more like Jesus Christ and, as we do that, we want to give. We don’t give because that cold hard law says give a tithe. We want to give because our nature has been changed.

 

Mike: Amen.

 

Doug: Deuteronomy 26:12 indicates that the poor would receive the tithe, not give them. Isn’t one of the issues today (and you Mike have clearly talked about the abuse of tithing) that often we are told to tithe and we’re told to tithe to the rich. We’re told to tithe to those who have got everything and give them more. Whereas, what it appears when we go to the Old Testament (and we’ve talked about the Levites that didn’t have anything else) but the poor were to receive their tithe. Shouldn’t we be making sure that our tithes don’t go to make people rich but rather the poor to have what they need? (8058)

 

Mike: How do you mean? By giving straight to the poor?

 

Doug: However you do it. But the end of your giving is in that way.

 

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Mike: That’s one aspect of our giving. Giving has many aspects. We can give to the poor or we can give to the house of God, to the house of the Lord. Now, if you are asking “Can’t we give our tithes to the poor directly?”, my answer is that I don’t see that as the way to go. The way to go is to encourage the church like Paul told Timothy that the church should take care of their widows. So part of the giving that has been going into the church can be used to take care of widows in First Timothy, chapter 5. And tithe can be used to take care of the poor. So that’s the way it should go if the church is run correctly then you can have enough resources to take care of this and take care of that.

 

Doug: You would say that the money that goes into the storehouse –those that are apt to give that money need to be very much aware that much of it goes, not to line the pockets of those that are rich and the nice gold suit (which I’m so glad you weren’t wearing tonight), but (seriously) to go to those in need.

 

Mike: To help the purpose of advancing the kingdom.

 

Doug to Russ: Don’t you think that’s good?

 

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Russ: Everything he said can be accomplished by sacrificial freewill giving. Proverbs 14:31 says “He that oppresses the poor reproaches his maker.”

 

If you’re gonna teach tithing, let’s teach everything because, in the Old Testament there were three tithes. There was a festival feast tithe. Let’s teach 23%. There was a second tithe that you brought three times a year to Jerusalem and the poor ate of it. And, believe it or not, the Levites and priests were always included among the poor in the Old Testament. Then there a third third-year tithe, which makes it another 3%, that was to be kept at home and in the villages that was strictly for the poor. So two of the three tithes were to feed the poor. The first one was to take care of the Levites and the priests.

 

I think it is a crime to oppress the poor. I think it is a crime to make people who are on disability and welfare and government subsistence feel guilty that they have to give ten per cent of their government check (which I don’t see as a biblical increase at all) and then go home and worry about how to pay bills. (12238)

 

Doug: 2 minutes each to sum up.

 

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Mike: I think my case is pretty much made because #1 God, the Bible never spoke against the tithe in the New Testament. I don’t see that. Not Jesus, not Paul. Now when you talk about tithing, it is all about honor and faith. If faith is absent, then you’re not living in the New Testament. He calls it sacrificial giving. I say, discipline yourself with the tithe until you get to the point when you can give your all and you’re not moved. But without the principle of faith, or the practice of faith as a lifestyle, you would not even know how to go about it because the element of tithing and walking with God has to do with your faith.

 

Now, if people are mad about what the word tithe just because of the way it was used it in the Old Testament, I will use the word “tenth.”

 

Doug: You don’t teach the 23%.

 

Mike: No, no, no, no. No, no. We don’t go that far. So the point I’m making is, let us understand the principle of faith in the background. Because a lot of times when people don’t understand –for instance, how did I get saved? I believed in Jesus. Why did I believe in Jesus? Because I want to get saved. When I get saved, what has happened to me? Something has changed in my heart? What activated that in my heart? My belief. When I want to do anything in the New Testament, my belief must be in line with that. And so when I believe in what I am doing and I honor God with my substance and I honor God with my finances and somebody says “The Levites are poor.” Jesus had women minister to him after their substance. So Paul had partners. So at the end of the day anything that is not of faith is of sin. And the law is not of faith. That’s why we don’t teach it as a law. But, wait, before you go, Abraham, listen, Abraham and the likes of him operated in faith before the law. David and corp operated in faith after the law. And all of them are listed in Hebrews 11 for us to follow their faith, not the law. (8540)

 

Doug: Russell: Sum up for us.

 

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Russ: My original statement was “Not one single thing taught in the churches today about tithing is biblical.” And I have yet to hear any text, any argument that proves to me anything different.

 

He says there is not one word in the New Testament that says tithing is ended. Well, I’ve got 14 reasons for that: the tithe that went to the Levitical servants is gone. The tithe went to the Old Covenant priests; that is gone. The definition of tithe was food from God’s holy land of Israel; that’s gone. The tithe went to the Levitical cities; that’s gone. The tithe was Old Covenant; that’s gone. Hebrews 7 says the tithe was disannulled; that’s gone. The Hebrews at least are dead to the law; that’s gone. I as a Gentile never was under the law; wow, that’s gone. At Calvary the Bible says that Jesus nailed the ordinances to the cross. He did away with the handwriting of ordinances that was against us. Tithing was an ordinance, believe it or not, in Numbers 18. That’s gone. The temple is gone. The priesthood is gone. The Old Covenant temple and priesthood that caused the Levitical priesthood to be supported by tithes is now both indwelling me. I am the Temple of God. I am a priest before God and I do not tithe to myself. It’s gone.

 

There are 14 things about tithing that are gone. And, therefore, I conclude that tithing is also gone. (8710)

 

Doug: Please take the Scriptures and check them out for yourselves and decide before God what should you be doing at this time. [applause and audience view]

 

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